Looks like it's another week, another Google competitive document strewn with inaccuracies....
This one starts with the premise that Google is the next generation, and gives readers ten steps to evaluate Google Apps. Too bad so many of them are based on false dichotomies. For example, someone at Google dug deep to come up with this comparison:
Software Acquisition Costs: Lotus Domino plus Lotus SmartSuite costs $450 per user based on published pricing. Google Apps costs $50 per user, per year, with no upfront capital outlay.SmartSuite? Really? Besides, LotusLive would be perhaps the right comparison, or maybe a three-year cost comparison of Google's $50 annual charge vs. software license + maintenance costs.
This one is also pretty funny:
Backup -- Backup is not free. According to a popular vendor website, the core backup product costs $995 to purchase, plus $595 for the special agent that is able to backup Lotus Domino servers. Performing backups of the mail system requires staff time to setup, execute and secure the process.Google doesn't backup GMail in their base service at all. You have to pay for Google Message Discovery (Postini) in order to have access to historical mail. In the cloud, this is an approach that makes sense. But attacking backups as expensive seems to be a misdirection.
Being able to access documents and email anytime, anywhere, from many devices without having to log into the corporate VPN or remote access saves time, enhances internal security and allows your end users to get more done in less time--while saving money.No problem with putting a Domino server outside a firewall, so again, a misdirection.
Google then asserts that the IT staff ratio for Notes/Domino is 1:150 users, and for Google is 1:500. I have met with 1000, 2000 employee companies who have one Domino guy/gal, not sure how they came up with 150. It certainly feels very 10+ years ago, like, uh, SmartSuite.
At least by the time you get to page 9, the truth patrol has come out.
Notes/Domino organizations enjoy certain benefits over other messaging and application platforms.Including, as it seems from the table that follows this sentence, Google. You betcha.
Link: Best Practices for Converting from Lotus Notes-Domino to Google Apps >
Post a Comment
- 2
Keith Brooks http://www.vanessabrooks.com | 7/21/2010 3:09:39 PM
The push is on, yet Google hasn't trained their own BPs in reality either. The documents, if they ever get them, are Exchange focused which makes their BPs look pretty bad.
So maybe they use these docs, maybe they don't, but any 1/2 decent lotus person in the companies will laugh at this.
Well they should.
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Sean Cull http://www.seancull.co.uk | 7/21/2010 3:47:54 PM
Just met a chap in a pub who swore blind that MS outperfromed Notes in every aspect of a recent evaluation, so much so that they are moving to exchange ( 12k users )
He made two striking comments.
The first was that the in-house team ( who had failed miserably to get past version 6 ) were responsible for presenting Notes in the comparison V's some hot shot MS guys - IBM needs to much more upfront about where Notes beats Exchange ( hardware, bandwidth , storage ) as this chap was convinced that MS has much better at these
The second was that MS had practically bought the upgrade.
I think a lot of what he said was 2nd hand but he had certainly drunk the cool aid as had most of his organisation.
IBM needs to be much better about retaining customers. I know that some will say that the customers don't want to be retained whatever the truth but for me that is a reflection on IBM's ability to form releationships with existing customers who are not "net new"
They were resigned to keeping Notes application servers though although I doubt they will commission any new apps.
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Chris Miller http://www.IdoNotes.com | 7/21/2010 4:32:42 PM
We are walking through the migration path in an extended series of posts so everyone gets the idea of how it works and what won't work.
I am ten parts into the series...
{ Link }
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David (The Notes Guy in Seattle) | 7/21/2010 4:53:08 PM
Ed, if you recall, I showed you a document that was given to my CFO by someone from MS. That document was a comparison of Notes/Domino to Outlook/Exchange and was absurdly inaccurate stating things like Notes did not support SSL. But that didn't matter. It was written, so it must be right. You know the result. Who did they believe, me or that document? Don't forget, many of the guys at Google used to work at MS. I hope you take Google's campaign more seriously than your post alludes.
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peter b | 7/21/2010 4:58:01 PM
Clearly inaccurate information.
Yet when stated so blatantly, people will believe it.
IBM needs to do press releases refuting this sort of misinformation. Every time they put it up, shoot it down.
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Richard Schwartz http://www.poweroftheschwartz.com | 7/21/2010 11:25:40 PM
A press release? No! A comprehensive set of web pages that presents IBM's own comparison, including refutations of all of Google's comparisons, but the accent needs to be on the positive rather than on the rebuttal. Each page in the set needs to be bookmarkable so links to each specific point can be forwarded in email. And it all needs to be presented in a visually interesting format that prints out nicely.
Also, it has to come up in the top three hits for "comparison of Lotus Notes Domino and Google apps". After 9 hours, Ed, this post comes up as the #1 hit. But this is just prose, and it's just rebuttal.
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Richard Schwartz http://www.poweroftheschwartz.com | 7/21/2010 11:28:25 PM
And.. even though it needs to come up in search results for a comparison of Lotus Notes and Domino versus Google Apps, it clearly should include comparisons for both the Notes/Domino and the LotusLive offerings.
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Richard Schwartz http://www.poweroftheschwartz.com | 7/21/2010 11:28:26 PM
And.. even though it needs to come up in search results for a comparison of Lotus Notes and Domino versus Google Apps, it clearly should include comparisons for both the Notes/Domino and the LotusLive offerings.
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Richard Schwartz http://www.poweroftheschwartz.com | 7/21/2010 11:30:40 PM
Oy. I don't know what's going on with all those repeats. I don't have Bill's excuse, but I do have something very wrong that is apparently causing keys to bounce -- though so far I've only observed it in Firefox.
Please delete the dups.
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David Bell | 7/22/2010 12:18:02 AM
"Being able to access documents and email anytime, anywhere, from many devices without having to log into the corporate VPN or remote access saves time, enhances internal security and allows your end users to get more done in less time--while saving money."
'scuse me ? Not having any control over what device a user uses enhances internal security ? Have they ever heard of data leak protection ?
Oh that's right, their business model relies on data leaks and lack of protection. No wonder they have this as an advantage, but it ain't one for the customer.
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Bill Geimer | 7/22/2010 1:17:23 AM
Hmmm. Last time I checked, there were 6 Admins and 5 designers running Domino mail for almost 200,000.
Safari 4. Hopefully 1 post.
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Albert Buendia | 7/22/2010 3:25:01 AM
Ed, I think the real debate IMHO would be why IBM is so slow adding improved templates to the N/D platform. I know Openntf.org but from a customer point of view I need some "official" templates inside the Domino releases. How many xPages updated templates are we going to see inside N/D 8.5.2 release?
Kind regards,
Albert Buendia
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Mark Davids | 7/22/2010 4:36:27 AM
There is a big difference between Google Message Discovery (basically journaling) and backups. They're correct that if I use Domino then I need to pay for backup software, and if I use Google then I don't. The usual cloud advantages and disadvantages apply.
You wouldn't suggest that I need to do my own backups of LotusLive would you?
On the cost comparison, I did do a 3-5 year cost comparison for continuing with Notes vs migrating to Google. Google's annual costs are less than our Lotus support costs, so they win by a long way in any comparison.
(Yes, there are upfront migration costs. But these are small compared to the hardware savings).
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Tim Haugen | 7/22/2010 6:49:15 AM
When I got to the admin ratios, I checked my ratio (1:5555) - per a recent external consultant benchmark report - and closed the report.
But -- the marketing topic is real... This kind of stuff is "written" and "in white papers" and "based on research" .. blah, blah, blah... and when the competitive analysis comes up, we are trying to counter "published data". IBM needs to be more aggressive in countering this stuff.
NO ONE ever comes to me and asks, "hey, I heard about this cool new IBM/Lotus Collaboration tool - when can I get it." The ask, "Why aren't we switching to Google?," "Why can't I have Sharepoint?" ... and we have to swing the ocean liner around...
I've said it before, but it's been awhile -- IBM/Lotus needs to think "Viagra." Don't just market to the person who provides the product (MD in their case, IT staff or Lotus partners in yours) -- market to the "end user" who has the "problem" they want to resolve... get them coming to "us" demanding the IBM/Lotus "little blue solution"... and, if you can get the FDA to warn about the same possible 4 hour or longer "side effect," your golden ;-)
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M. de Jong http://www.socialsoftwareblog.nl | 7/22/2010 8:00:27 AM
@14 Did you count the costs of the people in your company who have to deal with Google as a supplier of the service. I've seen many people make the mistake to think that if they move their mail to the cloud, they no longer need IT personnel in house to support the service.
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Mark Davids | 7/22/2010 8:22:42 AM
@17 That person is me, so I definitely included myself!
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Craig Wiseman http://www.wiseman.La/cpw | 7/22/2010 9:11:38 AM
@16 The simple answer is that the VAST majority of N/D admins have never heard of OpenNTF (even with the ultimate coolness that it is), and how would they? The IBM salesfolks are much more interested in selling connections or forms or LotusLive than building (for no add'l money) the clients' infrastructure.
It'd be different if there were nifty books or guides that folks could buy ( like { Link } ) that would tell them how to get and use the cool stuff.
Unless they have an excellent BP (who isn't tired and jaded yet), if it isn't in the box, how would they find it?
- 20
Craig Wiseman http://www.wiseman.La/cpw | 7/22/2010 9:32:02 AM
Just for giggles, here's the same search with:
Lotus Domino { Link }
Lotus Notes { Link }
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Craig Wiseman http://www.wiseman.La/cpw | 7/22/2010 9:47:29 AM
@21 Excellent!
Regardless of how easy it 'appears' to the Lotterati, downloading, installing, and setting up apps from OpenNTF is a scary thing for your generic hard-pressed admin, whose primary goal is to NOT destroy their environment. I've seen just the 'signing the app' stage blow their minds. Luckily, I've been around to nurse them through it, but the default is to stop right there.
It needs to be made much easier, and explained on the Domino Admin "welcome page"
My 1.5 cents, YMMV.
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Michael Kinder http://www.acadiasolutions.com | 7/22/2010 12:46:31 PM
@22 - really, a Domino admin that incapable should not be a Domino Admin. I have done both Admin and Development for nearly 16 years. Admittedly it is getting harder and harder to maintain both - but the reality is they (admins) should know how to add a template, sign it, create a database from it, maintain a realistic ACL, and know enough about the application to understand its possible impact.
Hard to believe anyone like that is still working. But obviously they are.
Maybe a good LSphere topic would be "What admins should really know about development and applications" and "What developers should really know about administration".
I know there have been some topics like that, but these should really be about "bridge building" and not the more common themes where Admins are given more reasons to fear and dislike their developer counter parts, and vice versa.
Just my opinion of course.
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Craig Wiseman http://www.wiseman.La/cpw | 7/22/2010 1:03:25 PM
@23 At SMB & medium shops, the "Domino admin" is usually someone wearing many hats - domino care & feeding is, typically, just a small part of their job.
It's a good thing that (unlike other mail-only products, like "barter") that Domino doesn't require a lot of love, but in this sense, it's a bad thing. They really don't get to spend a lot of time learning the ins & outs of Domino.
- 26
Michael Kinder http://www.acadiasolutions.com | 7/22/2010 1:39:50 PM
@25 - what do you think about repeating? My interpretation of what you are saying is, since they were done in the past there is reason not do these topics in the future, is that correct?
- 27
Michael Kinder http://www.acadiasolutions.com | 7/22/2010 1:40:51 PM
@26, should read:
My interpretation of what you are saying is, since they were done in the past there is reason not to do these topics in the future, is that correct?
Sorry for the typo.
- 28
David (The Notes Guy in Seattle) | 7/22/2010 3:21:35 PM
@16 The strategy of Notes since it's beginning has been to provide a development environment and let the people create apps to fit their needs. That flexibility is it's forte' and OpenNTF.org is a convenient way for people to collaborate and share those most widely applicable apps. But there are several advantages in bundling at least some of those apps into the product.
1. Those apps gain implied credibility by coming "in the box" from the authority that the box carries. To gain the backing from an authority is one of the most powerful elements of social proofing. Customers will assume these apps must be useful and well-written if it is a part of the product.
2. Those apps add value to the product itself. Even though it doesn't change what is available to customers or change the price, *it changes the perception of that value.* Which do you think sounds better: "Notes comes with 2 free apps" or "Notes comes with dozens of free apps and tools"?
At the very least, more essential apps, like the team mailbox should be part of the product. Why would you NOT do this? Remember, your competition is not talking about OpenNTF.org in their comparisons with Notes. But it would be harder for them to ignore if it is a part of the product.
- 29
Matthias Wille http://www.flexdomino.net | 7/22/2010 3:29:53 PM
I don't want to go into who has higher admin/mail user ratio (Domino or Google), I would rather like to debate some of the numbers stated here for the Domino admin/mail user ratio. Above I saw a ratio of 6/200,000 (not counting the 5 developers mentioned as they usually don't do much admin work). This makes a ratio of 1/33,333 !!! Let's do some maths: if only 5 percent of those users have only the most minute problem or even just a question with their Notes mail per day this means 1666 user need attention per day. Let's assume the 1 admin is completely shielded from direct access and users can only post an IT heldesk request and let's assume every IT heldesk request can be handled in just 60 seconds, this means 1 admin requires 1666 minutes or 27 hours !!! a day for user support.
To make this calculation backwards, if all assumptions except for the percentage of users remain and we try to stay within the usual 8 hour man day, then just a little more than 1 percent of the 33,333 user are allowed to have a problem per day. And we haven't yet covered any of the other responsibilities a Domino mail admin has.
I actually find these numbers pretty hard to believe and all I can say to this is:
white lies, lies,... statistics.
As I said, I don't want to indicate that Google is right with their numbers, but their 1/150 or 1/500 ratio (either way round) sounds much more believable than the numbers stated in here for Domino.
- 30
Tim Haugen | 7/22/2010 7:38:42 PM
@29 - Those of us who get to numbers like 1:33,333, or 1:5555, are obviously in large companies, which have help desks that users contact for problems. We're typically not including that staff in what we consider "admins".
@21 - Ed - more important than the fact that OpenNTF is at that link (several layers deep within ibm.com...) - I tried a number of searches for Notes or Domino applications, open source, etc. -- and consistently got OpenNTF as the top search result -- kudos for that!
- re: reviewing a book -- better one than none, but would rather hear you have an unmanageable stack to review...
@25 - yes, been done in the past, but doesn't mean it shouldn't be repeated. More so, should be Updated -- in fact, I'll talk with some of my folks about putting together an abstract. The complexities added by the Eclipse framework, plug-ins and Widgets alone could be a full session.
- the other problem is that the admin (singular) in the SMB environments mentioned, where Domino is only part of his/her job may not be able to justify attending Lotusphere.
- 31
Matthias Wille http://www.flexdomino.net | 7/23/2010 12:41:03 AM
@30 - well, the helpdesk employees supporting the Domino mail infrastructure and as such need to be counted if you want to achieve an honest/real statistic/cost calculation. This as not all companies are of the same size and in smaller companies admins fill in both roles. Of course efficiency at larger companies will be higher (hence the ratio), but not to that extend.
Include the salary of helpdesk staff vs admins as a factor and maybe you get a factor of 3 (3 helpdesk employees replacing an admin). If you then require ~50 helpdesk employees for the 33,333 users you have to add another 3 admins to come to a more correct ratio.
All I'm saying is that you can come up with any kind of ratio until you actually apply some rules on how you achieve them. This throwing in of numbers here is the least to say comparing apples with oranges and has as such no value.
My point is I really want to have some good and rock solid arguments to defend Notes/Domino as after all it is all about TCO, but if I come with these numbers my clients will not take me serious.
- 32
Tim Haugen | 7/23/2010 8:23:48 AM
@31 - I deleted a lot of what I had typed earlier -- yes, it would make sense to include appropriate help desk staff in the TCO.
Our analysis (previous work I referred to) was comparing area by area against like firms, so help desks were compared separately.
For appropriate help desk staff, we'd need to determine proportion of their time spent on email tickets - which is probably available, but I don't have at my fingertips. What I do know is that our help desk services everything - PC hardware, mobile devices, printers, remote network connectivity for 3500+ locations in addition to mobile workers, Line of Business applications across every imaginable platform, etc. -- in addition to Notes/email.
However, if I included our entire help desk staff in my ratio, I would still be "better" than Google's 1:500 claim, let alone their 1:150 claim for Notes.
- 33
Michael Kinder http://www.acadiasolutions.com | 7/23/2010 9:39:53 AM
@30 - I would love to co-present or whatever on that and have some ideas for the presentation. If I implied someone else should do it, I did not mean to.
I you want to work on this together I can be reached @
mkinder in my domain.
- 34
Irv Schor | 7/23/2010 10:17:20 AM
Out of the box templates within Domino should be updated and promoted with a Web 2.0 look, some older ones removed, and some newer added to benefit the end user (personal productivity) and SMB market. Suppplying some cross branded templates in conjunction with OpenNTF, maybe even an Open.ntf App Store database that installs with Domino and is automatically added to a user's bookmark database that brings new Domino users and Admins/Devs to the site would be very helpful here. A new SMB is going to be easily tempted to Google unless they see some additional value out of the box, ....value beyond apps that they 'could develop'. They want to see what they can use and be productive with now in the present.
- 35
Brett H | 7/23/2010 11:02:34 AM
Ed I didn't see your response with IBM's plans for answering this kind of misinformation. If I missed it sorry, can you please post this info?
Where is the link to the response? (I need to send this to my boss)
What site will a direct comparison of the products be posted on?
Where is the IBM advertorial marketing that displays the Lotus/Google comparisons?
Thanks.
Looking forward to
- 37
Brett H | 7/23/2010 2:23:10 PM
@36 At least it would be something Ed, the vacuum out of IBM is as usual deafening when it comes to responding to FUD. It doesn't cheapen one by calling BS when you see it. You do it here, but the bubble (and fringe) are the only audience here. Impression is everything, the public see FUD(slander really) like this and no response! That's weak. If a small little player made these comments on their small little site I can see why IBM would not bother responding. But when Google makes these claims, people tend to believe and spread that info, even if it is mis-info. So if IBM sits back when large players come along and steal their lunch, with no response, the market goes "well if Google is saying it and IBM isn't responding then it must be true!"
One can't take the high road while everyone else is passing you on the low road. Sure it might make y'all feel good... meanwhile the other players are winning the race. "We lost, but at least we played fairly." Nice one. Try that policy at the world cup, see how far that would get your team.
BTW the competitive site hasn't got any new relevant content in a year!
- 38
Christer Eklundh | 7/23/2010 5:45:26 PM
@ 37 +1. I could not have written it better! When will IBM understand this and stop taking punches all the time...? IBM, please remove your "we will just take sh*t" policy.
Definition of "take sh*it":
"to accept insults from a person without fighting back..."
- 39
John Detterline | 7/26/2010 7:58:07 AM
I have to agree with 37 & 38 on this on Ed.
I agree that IBM shouldn't spend ALL their time refuting every minor claim that comes out in the press. The easiest solution is to do a comparison with the competition on a yearly basis and publish that. It would accomplish several things, not the least of which would be pushing the Notes/Domino team to improve the product in ways that beat the competition. I know the team is constantly trying to improve, but many times it seems more like it's just a battle against themselves and not the competition. It's great that version 8.0.2 opened 20% faster than 8.0.1, but how does that compare to Outlook or Groupwise? It would also give IBM a link to post to refute bogus claims. It would also provide up to date information - the link you posted earlier went to a page providing data from 2008. Really? Other items were as of 2009 and I didn't see anything relating to 2010.
One of the biggest reasons FUD works is because there's no information provided to dispute it. One thing to remember is that battles can turn into free press. Getting into a comparison battle with Microsoft would let people know that Notes is still out there, fighting and improving.
- 40
Scott Treggiari | 7/26/2010 10:04:47 AM
In a survey we did at LotusUsergroup.org back in May more than 80% of administrators answered they manage more than 300 clients { Link }
The highest choice was >300 (maybe later we'll do one from 500 to 1000). Even if we assumed the lowest possible number for that answer, it's still more than double what they gave cretit for. We had about 850 people who answered the survey.
- 41
Brett H | 7/26/2010 11:40:42 AM
We have three admins and 4400 users... and it's smooth sailing most of the time. Rock steady.
- 42
Lisa Duke http://www.simplified-tech.com | 7/26/2010 12:51:20 PM
@15 - This is genius and the best way I've heard it expressed yet:
"IBM/Lotus needs to think "Viagra." Don't just market to the person who provides the product (MD in their case, IT staff or Lotus partners in yours) -- market to the "end user" who has the "problem" they want to resolve... get them coming to "us" demanding the IBM/Lotus "little blue solution"... and, if you can get the FDA to warn about the same possible 4 hour or longer "side effect," your golden ;-)"
To be fair, this was the focus of Lotus Live, but it's nowhere near enough "impressions".
- 43
M. de Jong http://www.socialsoftwareblog.nl | 7/27/2010 8:52:54 AM
I have to agree with @35, @37, @38 & @39. The link you gave is hardly useful. I was doing research on a comparison between Domino 8.5.1 and Exchange 2010 and it was astonishing how easy it was to find the FUD from Microsoft on the subject and the complete lack of information on this subject on ibm.com. In the end I wrote the whole series of articles based on my own research and many external sources (see my website. English translation will follow in August). IBM doesn't have to respond to every attack, but at least attack yourself every now and then. Have Gartner or Forrester or one of those companies create a good competitive essay. It doesn't matter if they were paid to be a bit more to the IBM side. We need those kind of reports to show to the CEO's.
- 44
Edward D http://www.google.com/a | 7/28/2010 9:58:28 AM
I've asked the Google Apps marketing team to revisit this comparison with LotusLive + Symphony. We'll see if/when the document gets updated.
Re: backups - no, you seriously don't need a backup solution with Google Apps. Google's sophisticated multi-tier backup will take care of your data, just as much as IBM's sophisticated multi-tier backups take care of LotusLive iNotes data. Postini Message Discovery is a whole 'nother product that's used to aid e-discovery in the event of corporate litigation or government investigation. This is a *huge* benefit to any organization, running Google Apps, Notes/Domino, or Outlook/Exchange, that thinks it might ever encounter an e-discovery scenario.
Re: putting a Domino server outside the firewall. Really? I doubt any security-minded organization would put a Domino server containing its users' mail databases entirely outside a firewall. You might have a front-end server that talks to a back-end Domino mail server, but that's an additional server license.
Not going to even debate the admin-to-user ratio. It's totally a YMMV, depending on your organization, culture, and IT staff's skill level.
Finally, yes, Domino makes a fine application platform. I've seen (and debugged) some pretty kickass workflow applications. No one in the industry (including IBM) has figured out how to migrate applications off of Domino and onto WebSphere/SharePoint/_____. So Domino will continue to live on ad infinitum, just like AS/400 applications!
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atilla öztürk http://www.ergen-e.com | 7/29/2010 10:41:47 AM
of course ibm has the duty to react to this sort of conceptional disinformatin. on the other hand this shows clearly, that ibm is on the right way with lotuslive. google expected more monopol-wise growth of its google apps thingie.
- 46
Nathan T. Freeman http://nathan.lotus911.com | 7/31/2010 5:18:46 PM
@44 - "I doubt any security-minded organization would put a Domino server containing its users' mail databases entirely outside a firewall."
Why not? I do this all the time. Hardening the OS is a trivial matter, and the NRPC protocol encryption model is far superior to anything in use by web-based services anywhere.
It's certainly possible to deploy a Domino server in a DMZ *poorly*. I very much wish that IBM's default settings for the platform were tighter. However, all the necessary controls are available on the platform itself.
- 47
Edward D http://www.google.com/a | 8/5/2010 1:19:32 PM
@46 That's the point ... it takes a skilled (and well-compensated) IT admin to make Domino run securely, reliably, and quickly. Why should a company pay so much for e-mail infrastructure and the required admin skills when they could divert that IT spend towards revenue-generating applications (e.g. LOB app on WebSphere). That's why the SaaS model makes so much sense -- just as FedEx is a specialized business focused giving customers a cost-effective option for logistics and offline deliveries, Google is a specialized business focused on giving customers a cost-effective option for messaging and collaboration.
Not arguing that you can make a Domino box as secure as a SaaS offering, but how many companies out there have access to *your* talent?
- 48
Matt H | 12/12/2011 10:44:09 PM
I am over a year late to this topic...but I have some things here you should consider?
ED- you said why should IBM respond to mis-information? Well, maybe becauseyou have lost so much ground in the N/D space? Last report I saw said IBM held only 4% of the email market? When IBM doesn't protect their email market share, they lose ground in other spaces too, like document management, iSeries, collaboration, chat, etc etc.
How are we to respond when users are constantly asking "when will we move to outlook?" I mean a few of those I can handle, but when the majority of my user community is asking this every quarter, how do you justify the pain they feel (whether real or not) when the client crashes, does not integrate well with MS Office ( and in this point I have to agree) and doesn't do other things that should be simple. For instance try copying an image or attachment from one email to a new email... It copies the whole darn message and that is not helpful when you don't want the whole message.
And yes, before everyone chimes n on how great 8.5 is, we are on that version and the client is still unreliable and I disagree that it contains many "outlook" type features and look and feel. Obviously whoever thinks that, last played with outlook back in 1999.
Ever try having your preview pane up and using the wheel on your mouse to scroll through your inbox? Guess what...crash crash crash.
I know you all are die hard Notes fans...and I was too, just tired of getting the crap kicked out of me in staff meetings about about how "clumsy" notes is. Hey it's great that the server almost never goes down, but what use is the server if your clients constantly break?
Guys, there is no hype on the numbers of companies implementing new domino installs compared to other email systems. There is no hype that IBM's market share has tanked. There is no hype on the number of conversions off domino onto other mail systems. The fact is you need to get out of the mainframe, iseries, domino century and come to terms with the realization that even though dinosaurs once dominated the food chain....the IBM dinosaur is getting hit with meteors! Get ready for extinction if IBM doesn't grow a backbone and turn around the industry "bad perception" of what it has become.
I would agree that most well-run domino sites seem to have a admin/user ration of between 1:1000 and 1:2000. Some have far higher user/admin ratios but in those cases one or more of the following is true:
- its not their primary mail platform
- Their service is terrible
- They have some form of proxy user management in place (and their service is stellar)
Certainly, IMHO, Domino is cheaper in terms of user/server and user admin ratios - in some cases by a factor of ten - than most other enterprise hosted systems out there.
---* Bill